Conversation with Neil Theise

Absolutely. I'd love to see the studies. I interviewed Dehaene about NDEs, and of course, Blanke about OBEs. And I've read their papers, in preparation for that. But that was a long time ago, and I don't pay much attention to that literature. I just don't have the bandwidth. If you have something that is blood-chillingly convincing and compelling, I'd love to see it.

And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to explicate the parameters of my theory. I've done a lot of thinking about it since the paper was published, especially about experience. But I don't often get the chance to explain my arguments, especially with someone who understands complexity and emergence. Obviously I can't convince someone who already loves a different theory; that's too much to ask. But it's great to be heard! Thank you for that.

No, I'm open to being wrong. If there is evidence that is powerful, I'm happy to look at it. I am quite sure that science has many more unanswered questions than it thinks. But it would be extraordinary for minds to work without brains, especially since we have a billion head injury examples of how brains and minds are intimately linked. I think I have a model which explains all of the data which I currently know. If someone has evidence that my theory cannot work, then I'm happy to see it.

I'm also an atheist. But not because I think I must be right. But because the model of 'a universe with no god' seems to map so much better onto the world we have, than the model 'universe with a god'. I'm all about a good model. If the model explains the world, great! If not, then it should be traded in for a better one.

Experience is a parallel world. It's a dream world. It represents the actual world, but it is totally orthogonal to the physical world.

The experience VR world is a user interface. Does that help? It's like the UI on an app. Obviously the UI just represents the data that is included on your computer or phone. But it is user-friendly, so the Core Network can interact with it. The brain developed a UI that would be capable of recording events and playing them back.

I don't know whether to put any weight behind the OBE / NDE claims. In general, that seems like one of those 'extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence' kind of things. Especially when we know how faulty and weird memory gets under duress. My base assumption is that minds need brains and brains need bodies.

I'm talking about the experience itself, not the contents, not the mechanism.

Again, Experience is a noun to me. Not a verb. The movie of Experience includes the fringe sense of 'me becoming aware', but that's just a construct for memory. It's helpful to remember when I became aware of things, so I have that sense. But it is a fiction, just as the 'I' is a fiction. The movie is just a cluster of qualities and concepts, which I can later replay and learn from.

And again, Subjective Experience is the activation of the entire brain by the hippocampal signal. That's why experience is so vivid and feels so real. Because it uses the entire brain. The color region handles color, etc. So experience is not just a code; it's full-on brain activity.

Sure, real-world VR set-ups require that their be a person inside, but I don't see why that has to be the case. Why can't the VR be for the Core Network? Since the Core Network evolved to make sense of memory, then it needed some way of saving episodes, and playing them back. That method is a virtual experience.

There is no ONE in the holodeck. But there is a network.

Redness is not something in the world. Your tetrachromat friend can tell you that the rest of us are fooling ourselves, when we think we see this or that color. Because her mechanism is more sophisticated, she gets more accurate representations. Qualia are like a language, that the brain self-creates, to map internal representations onto the external world. Most brains are born with the capacity for color mapping, but the actual mapping has to involve actual input from the world, because it's all about comparison. So 'red' is just your brain's way of representing objects of a certain quality, within memory. It's a way for the rat to remember the poison berry. It's a mnemonic.

Lucid dreaming is fun. I used to fly in them, a lot. But in non-lucid dreaming was does it mean to 'be aware' of a dream? You're asleep, aren't you? Can you be 'aware' while asleep? Also, how can you be 'aware' of something that's not there? A dream is just a movie.

A dream is an example of fake perception, fake awareness. And so is subjective experience.

I think you're pointing at the most difficult aspect of my model; it's so counter-intuitive. All the information flow stuff makes perfect sense, but we just don't feel 'fictional'! We feel like 'I'. We feel like minds, to ourselves. Descartes found the existence of his own mind to be irrefutable. He says "I think, therefore I am." But I say: "unless, dear Rene, you are just part of the thought itself."

Why do you think our minds think in English? Our brains don't think in English. Our brains think in spike trains. In my model, the hippocampus evolved to record sound, including speech. So speech was already represented and reportable by the hippocampus. So the core network, which controls the hippocampus, uses the tools that the hippocampus already evolved, in order to create mental simulations. And of course, language is very powerful in its ability to distinguish between things. So 'mind' is the core network using the hippocampus' simulation powers to create temporary mental representational structures that can be buffered and manipulated virtually.

One more thing. Won't convince you, but... Dreams. In dreams, you seem completely real. Perceptions seem completely real. Behavior feels real. But all of it is virtual, clearly. And that's true with subjective experience, as well. Experience is entirely virtual. It's a simulation. The self in perception is like the self in dreams. The only difference is: it's constrained by input from the neocortex, and thus from the outside world. That's the only difference.

Thanks so much for your time, and best to Mark!

I feel like I can reply now, knowing I won't take you from Mark and biopsies. Indeed, agreed that the self, the 'I' does not = experience. I definitely agree with that from Buddhism: both the self (anatta?) and the world (maya?) are illusions, creations of my brain. Personally, I take that to mean that my perceptions of world and self are highly constructed, and therefore, highly suspect.

I have an analogy about experience, which I think is helpful. I call it pixels-in/pixels-out. The technical analog to our episodic memory system is a video camera. Of course, memory is much less accurate, and records all the senses, emotions, etc., but there are key similarities. With the camera, stimulus from the outside world strikes pixels (in the camera's CCD). The pixels activate, sending a signal to the video processor, which turns the whole video into code, for storage. Upon replay, the code plays back on the video processor, which activates other pixels, the ones on a video monitor. The pixels on the video monitor are a proxy for camera pixels, and creates a representation of the event that was recorded.

Likewise, our sensory nodes are like the pixels, activating due to stimulus from the outside world, sending code to the hippocampus, which binds it together and records it. Upon recall, the code is played back from the hippocampus, activating the same brain nodes that contributed to the original memory. The activation of those brain 'pixels' creates a proxy representation for the original event. Subjective Experience is like the viewfinder of the camera. It's a continual video feed, for operator use. The operator in this situation is the Core Network.

I can't speak to the specific NDE cases, and I certainly don't mean to try to invalidate your personal experiences. But I think Blanke's patients were only constrained because the rest of their brains were still working as normal. I've also had slight OBEs, but always while in a hypnagogic / hypnopompic state. I think it's entirely plausible to have a 'waking dream' that feels entirely real, in the same way that during a flashback or intense memory, it's entirely possible to have a memory which feels utterly like it's happening right now. The brain does weird things.

I'm so glad you asked about OBE and NDE. I think they are very explainable in our model.

Experiences are generated by the hippocampus, which also generates dreams and imagination. When altered on fatigue or substance or anesthesia, it's easy to blend dream and waking material.

I interviewed Olaf Blanke, who generates OBEs with electrical stimulation. He stimulates (i.e. inhibits) the angular gyrus, which is a comparison node for several body-in-space regions of the brain, including somatosensory cortex, cerebellum, and the hippocampus.

https://vimeo.com/146961618

The model's interpretation of his findings: When the communication between these various body-in-space nodes breaks down, the hippocampus becomes unconstrained by the the more functional nodes, and its body-in-space representation can become unmoored from the body's actual position. That allows the hippocampus' native dream logic to take over, and physical logic becomes irrelevant.

Since hearing was still functional, Blanke's OBEs always stayed in the room, because (in my interpretation) the hippocampus was still constrained by the auditory cortex. All auditory data (i.e. Doctors making sounds) would keep them from wandering too far.

Unconstrained, the hippocampus can be a very silly machine, which is what dreams are.

NDEs also, I think can be explained by the breakdown in communication between brain regions. The hippocampus is trying to make an experience out of failing input, and so it is likely to elicit previous memories (i.e. life flashing before one's eyes, the recall of dead loved ones).

LOL, I am definitely aware of my sense of awareness!

But... I have had many experiences which made me doubt my sense of AGENCY. Especially dancing.

As a freestyle dancer, I could observe my own dancing behavior, without seeming to be willing it. My body just moved itself, when I was 'in the flow'.

I have had innumerous peak dance experiences without any fringe sense that I was 'willing' any of it.

Those experiences shook me from my previous sense of 'I'. Who am I, if I'm not even willing my body's behavior?

So, by the time I started working on the doc back in 2011, I was already convinced that the 'I' was a construct, part of perception, not part of reality.

It wasn't until the EMMOSE idea coalesced in 2013, that I realized that the I is a construct, purely for the sake of episodic memory, and psychological continuity.

The 'I' is a useful fiction to help the organism learn, but it can also take over, (yikes!) and warp the organism's life.

You're right; I think we'll have to have AI debate at some point. I don't see any fundamental problem, as long as the AI has a memory movie process, and a sense of self and ownership.

Yes, you're right; the North Korean state TV metaphor is imperfect. Most regions of the brain use Subjective Experience for error correction, not for learning a narrative.

It is the Core Network 'interpreter' (as Gazzaniga would call it) which creates narratives, based upon the flow of memory experiences.

But there ARE many parallel algorithms for decision-making in the brain, which argue among themselves.

And they work from a common understanding of what the personal history of the organism has been, in order to make their decisions.

Every night, during REM sleep, the hippocampus trains the neocortex, by playing event memories back and forth.

For example, a guitarist learns a new phrase, or a rat learns a new route.

This gives the neocortex 'artificial exposure', so fewer exposures to a stimuli are needed to learn a lesson.

So even though individual neurons aren't carrying around narratives, they are shaped by them constantly.

About meditation. I am sure that there is lots of good data there, but of course my studies have been about pathologies, single-unit recordings, and rat studies. That's what most of the hippocampal literature is about, and that's the core of the model.

Again, I don't dispute evidence that contradicts my model; I'm just not aware of any.

If you're ever interested, one of the other 2012 interviews I turned into a video was that with Dr. Jonathan Shear, all about meditation and the self. Great interview.

https://vimeo.com/46695760